2024 Mercedes-AMG | Petronas F1 Team

[organic]

Since 2007, I have always thought that Hamilton and Alonso were on the same level speed wise and Race craft etc, but now I get the feeling that Alonso is better.....

always was.

And yet he couldnt beat him in the same car as a rookie. Hmmm…

Riding on the coattails of a performance 17 years ago??

[Hammerfist]

always was.

And yet he couldnt beat him in the same car as a rookie. Hmmm…

Riding on the coattails of a performance 17 years ago??

It was a factually incorrect statement i was replying to but i see i hit a nerve…

[Joel709]

Both are legends of the sport, they’re both extremely competitive against each other but I doubt either really care about who’s better, they know they’ll go down in F1 history and that’s all that matters

[JordanMugen]

Can't wait for 2025 to see everybody that's here right now in the Ferrari threads!

Scuderia Ferrari has plenty of team fans. I'm not sure Mercedes-Benz (and/or British American Racing) has that many team fans, I guess mainly due to the large gap in Mercedes participation but also it doesn't help that Mercedes do not sponsor a home German Grand Prix.

There wouldn't be that many Grand Prix fans who have stuck with supporting Mercedes since the 1930's or 1950's. A Mercedes supporter as a child from the 1930's would be at least in their 90's now (of course the same is true for long term Scuderia Ferrari fans since the 1930's).

Anyway do folks suppose Mercedes GP made the same 'mistake' as Alpine F1 made, albeit to a lesser extent? I.e., they spent much of their time and budget for 2024 car on structural changes to their car which did not directly increase the performance of their car?

Maybe there was more performance potential still available in the old Mercedes (or old Alpine) rear suspension and redesigning that was not an efficient use of resources?

Was it necessary to spend time and money on moving the cockpit for the W15 and removing the scalloped fuel tank design? The W14 was performing nicely and maybe could have been developed further?

[Elite]

It's really quite simple, the w14 development was stopped as they had reached the limit of the potential of that concept. Performing well? You must not have watched Brazil, Las Vegas, Abu Dhabi.

With respect, you have no clue what you are talking about and should go back to the red bull forum instead of obsessing over Mercedes

[Venturiation]

always was.

And yet he couldnt beat him in the same car as a rookie. Hmmm…

Riding on the coattails of a performance 17 years ago??

Hamilton has always been superior to Alonso and max

[Venturiation]

Can't wait for 2025 to see everybody that's here right now in the Ferrari threads! Lol. There always seems to be a litte caravan following no matter where the sticks are put up.

But guys. The man finished best of the rest laste year in the fifth fastest car, has 7 wdc and 103 wins and 104 pole positions. I don't see how trundling around for 6th place means anything?

It makes more sense to help Mercedes understand their own car no?

And suddenly all the 63 gr "fans" disappear and become CL16 fans and experts

You can see it just by the silence here when 63 binned it in the last lap

[chrisc90]

It's really quite simple, the w14 development was stopped as they had reached the limit of the potential of that concept. Performing well? You must not have watched Brazil, Las Vegas, Abu Dhabi.

With respect, you have no clue what you are talking about and should go back to the red bull forum instead of obsessing over Mercedes

Had they reached potential though or is it just a saying? I mean RB now run a Mercedes style engine cover (which I think looks awful BTW) so clearly some parts were working.

No public is ever going to know the full set of numbers or headline/max potential numbers for a car, just isn’t going to happen.
We got a lucky piece of information when Red bull designers said they had seen ‘their’ max potential of a design and considered a change.

[CHT]

It's really quite simple, the w14 development was stopped as they had reached the limit of the potential of that concept. Performing well? You must not have watched Brazil, Las Vegas, Abu Dhabi.

With respect, you have no clue what you are talking about and should go back to the red bull forum instead of obsessing over Mercedes

Had they reached potential though or is it just a saying? I mean RB now run a Mercedes style engine cover (which I think looks awful BTW) so clearly some parts were working.

No public is ever going to know the full set of numbers or headline/max potential numbers for a car, just isn’t going to happen.
We got a lucky piece of information when Red bull designers said they had seen ‘their’ max potential of a design and considered a change.

I think Merc or perhaps Toto was trying to please Lewis and this was capture in one scene in Drive to Survive where Lewis said I told you so and Toto agreed . I believe that scene must have happened before Mike was fired. And little did they know AN took some concept from W14 and integrate to their RB20. Guess Mike must now be saying I told you so Toto.

2024 and 2025 will be a writeoff for Merc and no one seems to be talking about any major upgrades. And it's kind of weird to see LH scrutinising RB20 after the sprint race..is he still involve in the design department at merc? or for Ferrari?

[organic]

They've got parts coming to Miami actually...

But I think Merc have learnt not to talk up big upgrades before they provide

[Luscion]

AMuS also reported around a week ago a big upgrade coming at imola,don't know if that's been moved up to Miami or they're bringing upgrades back to back

https://www.auto-motor-und-sport.de/for ... ren-setup/

[FW17]

Toto is a problem for the team moving forward just as Mattia was. They need a fresh outlook on running the team when the engines are on par, which currently the set up (1000 people) does not work. Toto is a share holder and he can continue on that, but TP and CEO are not suited to the current budget camp era.

[ringo]

It's different when you used to win trying to claw your way back. Than when you don't know how to win and settle for what you get.
Aston Martin and Alonso are Force India fundamentally. P7 is what they expect. Stroll is nowhere and Alonso is new to the team and has no reason to experiment. They car is solidly 3rd of 4th best car on the grid. Force India are glad with that status.
As for Lewis only complaining about setup when he loses to George. That's not true. Even when he is ahead he says he made some changes after Practice 3 that seem to work or wasnt the best. He always says that. Why would he be a spoiled sport if he gets a good result and complains? The hate brigade will say he is ungrateful etc. The man cannot win in the eyes of some.
But again, why did he experiment and come 3rd last year? Clearly he knows what he is doing. And clearly he doesnt see beating George as any kind of career goal to accomplish. He's just keeping his head down and smelling the roses and learning about car setups. He really has nothing to prove after 103 wins and 7wdc.

Yeah, fundamentally Force India... + a brand new factory + a new wind tunnel + full funding + new ownership + new technical leadership + new drivers + an incoming works engine partner. Basically the exact same team, kind of like how RBR is just Jaguar with a new badge. Nothing has changed for those two teams, ambition level is still back of the midfield.

Alonso has no reason to experiment? Why he has the exact same reasons to "experiment" as Hamilton, all they care about is getting back to the front. They've already felt the taste of victory. The real reason he doesn't "experiment" is because he's crushing his teammate, he's not in need of an excuse.

He never calls them "experiments" when he's ahead, nor does he feel the need to bring it up. It's only when behind he brings it up as an excuse. Of course, we won't find you in here saying that "Hamilton might've beat Russell because his experimental set-up worked", ever. Eventhough if you truly believed he was doing these experiments, and you were honest, that would be a very likely possibility. Would it not? Or do experiments only fail, only work one way? Convenient.

But again, why did he experiment and come 3rd last year? Clearly he knows what he is doing. And clearly he doesnt see beating George as any kind of career goal to accomplish. He's just keeping his head down and smelling the roses and learning about car setups. He really has nothing to prove after 103 wins and 7wdc.

And 6th the year before that, let's not forget.

Keeping his head down? Not exactly. He's keeping his head up in the media, on the team radio, making sure everyone far and wide knows that Sir Lewis Hamilton is indeed conducting "experiments". If he truly didn't care he wouldn't be so adamant about reminding everyone after every session. Of course he does care, and he understands that it does matter for his remaining career. A person who didn't care would act like Seb Vettel did in the final seasons of his career.

Okay. Let's make a bet. Hamilton beats Russel this year, still makes excuses to the media, and does the young driver test for Ferrari and the world forgets about 2024 and the W15 and even Russel gets forgotten.

[ringo]

Toto is a problem for the team moving forward just as Mattia was. They need a fresh outlook on running the team when the engines are on par, which currently the set up (1000 people) does not work. Toto is a share holder and he can continue on that, but TP and CEO are not suited to the current budget camp era.

I kind of agree that Toto needs to go. I like him as a character and for what he has done for the team over the years. But he can bring no mor3 new ideas as team principal.
He should be CEO then bring Binnotto in as teamp principal.

[ringo]

He really has nothing to prove after 103 wins and 7wdc.

Russell wasn't driving for Mercedes in 2020 or 2021, so nobody knows if Russell could have 1 WDC or 2 WDC, which would also mean Hamilton would "only" be on 6 WDC (which is still excellent!).

All both Mercedes drivers -- Russell and Hamilton -- can do is push to the maximum. Obviously despite Lewis being certain that Mercedes GP "never makes mistakes", he lost faith in the team while also Wolff did not offer a sufficient contract. A shame for the three-star brand, but it happens I guess -- Vettel similarly left Red Bull Racing for the prancing horse despite success, while Alonso left Renault for McLaren-Mercedes despite success...

Indeed Hamilton himself left McLaren-Mercedes despite success and could otherwise have stuck with McLaren-Honda, McLaren-Renault and McLaren-Mercedes to the present day!

It's all woulda coulda shoulda. If Lewis didnt have a gearbox glitch in Brasil 2007 he would be a rookie champion, or if came in to pit one lap earlier in China that year.
If his engine didnt blow in Malaysia 2016, or had the reliability issues then.
2021 etc.. Many situations Lewis could also be a 9 time champ, not to mention more wins thar were stollen. Let's keep it simple at 7 time and 103.
There is no point Lewis push to the Maximum with a setup predicted to give them 7th at best if all redbulls, ferraris, mclarens have clean races and Alonso makes an error or burns out his tyres.
The setup changes are defining the limits of the car and the tyres. It's actually helping the team.